Author Topic: Why Litecoin  (Read 1585 times)

Offline xavier23

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Why Litecoin
« on: July 04, 2013, 07:36:47 AM »
Has it ever occurred to people that all of litecoins key "features" can, if they are proved to be good, just be copied by bitcoin at some point in the future? Like, for example, the reduced confirmation times?

Also, scrypt mining is not at all an advantage. If litecoin ever gets popular, somebody will just create a scrypt-miner, like ASICS but designed for scrypt. So the whole mining arguement is totally redundant.

I see nothing good about litecoin compared to bitcoin. It has no distinguishing features. In the short term, it may have a value above 0 due only to a pump and dump that is being organized on these forums. In the long term, it will have a value of 0.

Offline Skyfall

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2013, 08:14:17 AM »
Has it ever occurred to people that all of litecoins key "features" can, if they are proved to be good, just be copied by bitcoin at some point in the future? Like, for example, the reduced confirmation times?

Also, scrypt mining is not at all an advantage. If litecoin ever gets popular, somebody will just create a scrypt-miner, like ASICS but designed for scrypt. So the whole mining arguement is totally redundant.

I see nothing good about litecoin compared to bitcoin. It has no distinguishing features. In the short term, it may have a value above 0 due only to a pump and dump that is being organized on these forums. In the long term, it will have a value of 0.

Well well well. Where to start?
Scrypt mining is and advantage. The problem with developing an ASIC miner for the scrypt algo, is the requirement of pure memory.  Since bitcoin uses double sha256, you don't even need memory to hash it. It's done by a processing unit. Scrypt however IS different.
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Offline illpoet

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2013, 08:16:00 AM »
it costs way more money in electricity to produce litecoins than it does to produce bitcoins so they are going to be more valuable.

Offline Sy

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2013, 08:26:32 AM »
it costs way more money in electricity to produce litecoins than it does to produce bitcoins so they are going to be more valuable.

In theory, yes - thats (imho) why bitcoin is falling, asics make them cheaper to produce, even with their initial investment, i mean come on, 6k for an asic, reasonable sized gpu farms are way more expensive.

Offline Sy

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2013, 08:31:29 AM »
Has it ever occurred to people that all of litecoins key "features" can, if they are proved to be good, just be copied by bitcoin at some point in the future? Like, for example, the reduced confirmation times?

Also, scrypt mining is not at all an advantage. If litecoin ever gets popular, somebody will just create a scrypt-miner, like ASICS but designed for scrypt. So the whole mining arguement is totally redundant.

I see nothing good about litecoin compared to bitcoin. It has no distinguishing features. In the short term, it may have a value above 0 due only to a pump and dump that is being organized on these forums. In the long term, it will have a value of 0.

1) That is in theory possible but will never happen since...its logicaly impossible, do some reading on confirmation, block creation time and coin inflation
2) Agreed, there is no real difference in BTC, LTC will follow the same fpga / asic path, its just more work
3) Not true since 1 is not possible.

Offline aspect

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2013, 09:03:12 AM »
Please do your research on Scrypt and ASICs.  Yes, that is possible, however the amount of memory required and the ASIC resilience of the Scrypt algorithm makes it really very hard to make an ASIC.  Majority of FPGA attempts so far have failed.  To my knowledge Jainslee's development team has managed to develop an FPGA miner which so far has only 30% performance increase but requires cost reduction, which is another side of the problem which is very hard to attain.

You don't 'just create' an ASIC miner.  This is not SHA256d.  I have had seasoned hardware engineers who have years of experience developing in VHDL and building custom hardware study the problem, run simulations, and all of them refused to work on this.  Pretty much no matter how you twist this, the designed hardware, either due to die space required by integrated memory in ASICs or cost of FPGAs ends up either producing less performance or costing much more then an average consumer GPU intended for gaming.

There are numerous arguments that can be made for an against this.  Yes, ASICs are possible, and yes, eventually they can be developed, but there are so many obstacles and this is so complex that by the time this happens, chances are that Litecoin will see much wider distribution in the hands of crypto-currency enthusiasts then Bitcoin.  Especially given that crypto-currency has had it's massive media exposure only this year, after more then 50% of Bitcoins have been mined and before less then 20% of Litecoins have been mined.

Trust me, a lot of things 'have occurred' to people and many of the things that have occurred to them are the reason people are working on and contributing to this project.

As for value, if you think that it's value is based around pump and dumps, you are very much mistaken.  Litecoin has attracted a lot of interest from investors and users from all over the world.  The amount of pumping and dumping Litecoin is seeing is not any different then what happens in the world of Bitcoin or for that matter on many other markets.

Offline Sy

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2013, 09:38:13 AM »
Please do your research on Scrypt and ASICs.  Yes, that is possible, however the amount of memory required and the ASIC resilience of the Scrypt algorithm makes it really very hard to make an ASIC.  Majority of FPGA attempts so far have failed.  To my knowledge Jainslee's development team has managed to develop an FPGA miner which so far has only 30% performance increase but requires cost reduction, which is another side of the problem which is very hard to attain.

You don't 'just create' an ASIC miner.  This is not SHA256d.  I have had seasoned hardware engineers who have years of experience developing in VHDL and building custom hardware study the problem, run simulations, and all of them refused to work on this.  Pretty much no matter how you twist this, the designed hardware, either due to die space required by integrated memory in ASICs or cost of FPGAs ends up either producing less performance or costing much more then an average consumer GPU intended for gaming.

There are numerous arguments that can be made for an against this.  Yes, ASICs are possible, and yes, eventually they can be developed, but there are so many obstacles and this is so complex that by the time this happens, chances are that Litecoin will see much wider distribution in the hands of crypto-currency enthusiasts then Bitcoin.  Especially given that crypto-currency has had it's massive media exposure only this year, after more then 50% of Bitcoins have been mined and before less then 20% of Litecoins have been mined.

Trust me, a lot of things 'have occurred' to people and many of the things that have occurred to them are the reason people are working on and contributing to this project.

As for value, if you think that it's value is based around pump and dumps, you are very much mistaken.  Litecoin has attracted a lot of interest from investors and users from all over the world.  The amount of pumping and dumping Litecoin is seeing is not any different then what happens in the world of Bitcoin or for that matter on many other markets.

That sums it up nicely and i'm perfectly fine if LTC stays gpu only forever, makes it more predictable but i don't count on it :)

The last part is sort of true, ltc is still lacking alot of support from shops but i'm pretty sure that's just a matter of time now, 1-2 month.

Offline warren

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2013, 11:33:29 AM »
Bitcoin seems uninterested in copying Litecoin's key feature: efficiency in the growth of blockchain and UTXO set proportional to actual user adoption.

http://keepbitcoinfree.org/
Learn how Bitcoin struggles with their spam and growth efficiency issues.  The debate within the Bitcoin community has gone on for years now without any meaningful progress.  Meanwhile Litecoin has had anti-spam measures since late 2011.  They are currently too strong.  We are considering how to make the anti-spam measures smart instead of just tough in a future release.
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Offline pmull

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2013, 08:07:47 PM »
Warren, did the Dev-Team noticed ZeroCoin and if so, any statement about this? (even if early)

Offline warren

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2013, 02:22:23 AM »
Warren, did the Dev-Team noticed ZeroCoin and if so, any statement about this? (even if early)

Zerocoin's current design is horribly horribly inefficient.  Among Litecoin's core principles is efficiency, so Zerocoin would be a non-goal.  We have plenty of other high priority goals that need work over the netxt year.

If Bitcoin were to adopt Zerocoin then Litecoin might inherit it one day.  We just don't have time to work on things ourselves that are non-goals.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 02:49:07 AM by warren »
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Offline xavier23

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 12:56:26 AM »
1 - Please do your research on Scrypt and ASICs.  Yes, that is possible, however the amount of memory required and the ASIC resilience of the Scrypt algorithm makes it really very hard to make an ASIC.  Majority of FPGA attempts so far have failed.  To my knowledge Jainslee's development team has managed to develop an FPGA miner which so far has only 30% performance increase but requires cost reduction, which is another side of the problem which is very hard to attain.

You don't 'just create' an ASIC miner.  This is not SHA256d.  I have had seasoned hardware engineers who have years of experience developing in VHDL and building custom hardware study the problem, run simulations, and all of them refused to work on this.  Pretty much no matter how you twist this, the designed hardware, either due to die space required by integrated memory in ASICs or cost of FPGAs ends up either producing less performance or costing much more then an average consumer GPU intended for gaming.

There are numerous arguments that can be made for an against this.  Yes, ASICs are possible, and yes, eventually they can be developed, but there are so many obstacles and this is so complex that by the time this happens, chances are that Litecoin will see much wider distribution in the hands of crypto-currency enthusiasts then Bitcoin.  Especially given that crypto-currency has had it's massive media exposure only this year, after more then 50% of Bitcoins have been mined and before less then 20% of Litecoins have been mined.

Trust me, a lot of things 'have occurred' to people and many of the things that have occurred to them are the reason people are working on and contributing to this project.

As for value, if you think that it's value is based around pump and dumps, you are very much mistaken.  Litecoin has attracted a lot of interest from investors and users from all over the world.  The amount of pumping and dumping Litecoin is seeing is not any different then what happens in the world of Bitcoin or for that matter on many other markets.

Sorry, I do not understand the technical specifics of the Scrypt algorithm. However I understand that it is more complicated than SHA256 and more resource intensive.

Either way, an understanding of this algorithm is not necessary to come to the conclusion that the principle behind how this currency works is exactly the same as bitcoin.

Therefore, if it ever was to replace bitcoin, a specialist mining device would be brought to market by someone, making your arguements about not having specialist miners irrelevant. The only reason it hasn't happened is because right now, given the popularity or price of a litecoin, it is just not worthwhile doing.

Somebody mentioned it requires more electricity to mine a coin , therefore each coin should be worth more. Well, I cannot believe that - given the current difficulty of bitcoin. I am sure it requires more electricity right now to mine 1 bitcoin than 1 litecoin. It really has nothing to do with the algorithm, it is related to the number of other people mining.

Quote
1) That is in theory possible but will never happen since...its logicaly impossible, do some reading on confirmation, block creation time and coin inflation

Sure, actually thinking about it - it would be impossible to change the confirmation times without affecting the inflation rate.

However, I think the bitcoin community would prefer to adjust this in the future to make it the best crypto-currency available, than have bitcoin loose out to a competitor like Litecoin, and become totally irrelevant.

This is of course a speculation. However, even you 2.5minute confirmation time , compared to bitcoin's 10 minute confirmation, is not going to be enough for many common uses - as demanded by the average consumer. Therefore you will have exactly the same problems as bitcoin with the confirmation time.

Also the scalability issue remains the same with litecoin.

So, in summary, I cannot see any advantage to this coin - except for the pump and dump scheme and that, if bitcoin collapses for some reason other than the problems already discussed, then litecoin may be an alternative.

It IS amazing that nobody has really come up with an answer to this, sure I am not the first to raise these issues, but people just seem happy to ignore them or rationalize them in some way. The way I see it, this entire movement is pointless and will eventually collapse to zero.

Offline strobe

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 03:27:46 AM »
Either way, an understanding of this algorithm is not necessary to come to the conclusion that the principle behind how this currency works is exactly the same as bitcoin.

Therefore, if it ever was to replace bitcoin, a specialist mining device would be brought to market by someone, making your arguements about not having specialist miners irrelevant.
The only reason it hasn't happened is because right now, given the popularity or price of a litecoin, it is just not worthwhile doing.

did you even read aspects post?

How are we supposed to actually engage in a logical debate with you on this?

Please do your research on Scrypt and ASICs.  Yes, that is possible, however the amount of memory required and the ASIC resilience of the Scrypt algorithm makes it really very hard to make an ASIC.  Majority of FPGA attempts so far have failed.  To my knowledge Jainslee's development team has managed to develop an FPGA miner which so far has only 30% performance increase but requires cost reduction, which is another side of the problem which is very hard to attain.

You don't 'just create' an ASIC miner.  This is not SHA256d.  I have had seasoned hardware engineers who have years of experience developing in VHDL and building custom hardware study the problem, run simulations, and all of them refused to work on this.  Pretty much no matter how you twist this, the designed hardware, either due to die space required by integrated memory in ASICs or cost of FPGAs ends up either producing less performance or costing much more then an average consumer GPU intended for gaming.

There are numerous arguments that can be made for an against this.  Yes, ASICs are possible, and yes, eventually they can be developed, but there are so many obstacles and this is so complex that by the time this happens, chances are that Litecoin will see much wider distribution in the hands of crypto-currency enthusiasts then Bitcoin. 

Online AliasSmithOrJones

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2013, 10:36:01 PM »
Well, I'm glad to know that I didn't waste my money as I have bought around 150 7950s for mining!

LOL!

;)
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Online AliasSmithOrJones

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2013, 10:37:31 PM »
oops

double post.................................
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Offline Smoothie

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Re: Why Litecoin
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2013, 10:34:17 AM »
One of the main things I liked about Litecoin despite it being a copy from the satoshi client was that it was ANOTHER CHOICE.

Having only one choice is unhealthy because it doesn't promote innovation. It is essentially putting people into a box and having them not think outside the box.