Poll

Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?

Yes
245 (60.3%)
No
141 (34.7%)
Blank vote
20 (4.9%)

Total Members Voted: 404

Author Topic: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?  (Read 45179 times)

Offline skinnkavaj

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« on: December 31, 2013, 03:43:49 PM »
I feel it's time to have this discussion here at Litecointalk and not at Bitcointalk. The following I am going to quote is posted by a famous bitcoin developer, gmaxwell, he is one of the core bitcoin developers and suggest LTC should change it's proof of work function to avoid ASIC mining.

Question is, what does the LTC community think?

According to reports scrypt ASICs may soon exist, finally completely eliminating this feature distinguishing Litecoin from Bitcoin— at first LTC was supposed to be CPU only but that failed, then GPU only and thats failing.

I never thought much of the goal here, but at least it was a distinction— if, IMO, a kinda dumb one.  The thing I like least about alts is the lack of distinction and innovation they frequently suffer, and so being another asic mined coins but with different asics seems like such a waste to me.

If the LTC community wanted it could change POW and the practice of being willing to change it would probably be a stronger protection for general purpose hardware than the use of any particularity or set of particular schemes could ever be. Though since (it seems to me) so much of the LTC community is miners the change would have to be to another CPU+GPU friendly one so the existing miners wouldn't be left out.

There are a lot of options here— including different POWs already deployed other ALTs or something novel.  What got me musing on this subject was the question of: If I threw out an alt that used ECDSA signature validation as its POW would someone write ultra fast GPU code for ECDSA (which would be very useful in helping to scale node performance, even in Bitcoin)?

I suspect that if LTC doesn't change POW now that the introduction of fixed function hardware will mean that it never can. Perhaps its already too late, though I don't know: LTC has always advertised itself as being GPUASIC proof, and a violation of that is an outright bug, which arguably should be fixed no different than if it were possible to mine more than 84 million litecoins.

Such a change could be made mostly seamlessly— a new version released, and a deadline for upgrade, not too unlike the Bitcoin 0.8 hardfork or the nversion=2 blocks. Existing miners could even use coinbase votes (indicating their ability to support the switch in the blocks they mine) to trigger the change so that it could be done in a way which is assured to not exclude too much of the existing hashrate (though, presumably, using a coinbase vote would fail if there are secretly large asic farms already). Miners would need to upgrade software, but they'd just have to update sometime before the switchover, no tricky synchronization would be required.

I wonder what people think of this? Is this the sort of thing that could get near-unanimous consensus in the LTC community?

Support decentralized trading embracing the true nature of crypto visit www.litecoinlocal.org

Offline Bossman

  • Global Moderator
  • Hardcore Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2757
  • In Coblee we trust
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2013, 03:54:22 PM »
Stupid thread started by a troll on bitcointalk , no need to bring this useless conversation here.

Offline Markymark

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2013, 05:18:13 PM »
On the contrary. It's a great discussion to have here, and not over on bitcoin talk or redditt. The conversation is already taking place. The question is, does the LTC community want to be a part of it.

I think it would be a great way to continue to differentiate LTC from BTC to keep LTC working with consumer grade hardware and avoid the arms race that ASICS will bring to the table.

Upgrades to coins happen all the time. If the development team would plan random changes to the way the coins are processed, it would send the message that ASICS aren't going to be part of LTC.


Offline JayAce81

  • Litecoin Association Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2013, 05:26:46 PM »

I can understand the point, but I'm not sure I agree with it.


Arguably, some of the instrinsic value of a Bitcoin comes directly from the financial investment people are making to mine it. It's no coincidence that the advent of BTC ASIC's coincides with a rise in value.


If the same can be said for the future of LTC, that would imply that changing the hashing algorithm could prevent the value from rising?! Maybe the opposite is true, who knows.... But that's how I feel.

Whilst I won't be investing in ASIC hardware myself, I think it can only be a good thing to see the technology make it to market, eventually.
LTC: LY9uoas7CS6sPWpEbYLakyhtJxBwF111yS

Offline iPirate

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Crypto-anarchist
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2013, 05:50:24 PM »
The big problem I have with all of this, is it starts to become commercialized. The whole crypto-currency movement was suppose to be a way for the people to take back control of our money. Decentralization. Now, it just seems that all the majority cares about, is how much fiat the damn things are worth. I don't know about you guys, but I'm tired of being a financial slave to the "powers that be".

The central banking fiasco, that we are elbow deep in now, is one of the main reasons for the American revolution and the very same reason our economy is taking a shit.

If crypto is just going to end up another centralized currency, then In my mind, it's pointless.

Any way, I think it should be changed to avoid ASICs mining, because it will eventually cause GPU obsolescence. Therefore killing the original idea of allowing the little guy to succeed for a change, metaphorically speaking. It becomes a "who has the most money to invest" kinda thing. My opinion.


"The illegal, we can do right away! It's the unconstitutional that takes time."- Henry Kissinger

Offline JayAce81

  • Litecoin Association Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2013, 06:01:27 PM »
The big problem I have with all of this, is it starts to become commercialized. The whole crypto-currency movement was suppose to be a way for the people to take back control of our money. Decentralization. Now, it just seems that all the majority cares about, is how much fiat the damn things are worth. I don't know about you guys, but I'm tired of being a financial slave to the "powers that be".

The central banking fiasco, that we are elbow deep in now, is one of the main reasons for the American revolution and the very same reason our economy is taking a shit.

If crypto is just going to end up another centralized currency, then In my mind, it's pointless.

Any way, I think it should be changed to avoid ASICs mining, because it will eventually cause GPU obsolescence. Therefore killing the original idea of allowing the little guy to succeed for a change, metaphorically speaking. It becomes a "who has the most money to invest" kinda thing. My opinion.


The comparison to Fiat is a good indicator of currencies' real-world worth though, in an ideal world you could walk into a shop and spend your preferred alt-currency directly which would give you a value indicator plain and simple! But until such time that that becomes a reality I'm afraid the comparison to USD$ or GBP£ is primarily the only option.
LTC: LY9uoas7CS6sPWpEbYLakyhtJxBwF111yS

Offline manfred

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 497
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2013, 06:07:02 PM »
So a core bitcoin dev. says jump, and you jump?
No need to but road blocks in the way, full steam ahaid
The price of any commodity tends to gravitate toward the production cost.  -Satoshi N.

Offline CGMChick

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2013, 06:09:55 PM »
Probably not very practical or popular, but what would be interesting is a way to throttle the hashing power of an IP address or something similar to maintain a distributed network.
No chickens were harmed during the mining process

Offline Giga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2013, 06:26:28 PM »
i voted no
LTC Tip Jar: LhH2c5trkgi74wKggXm1PRTDnzZp4iATBU

Offline TheMage

  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Litecoin Association Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6230
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2013, 11:25:28 PM »
Stupid thread started by a troll on bitcointalk , no need to bring this useless conversation here.

No offense, but that was a stupid statement. Why wouldnt we have this discussion?


I voted Yes, and when I can compile my thoughts on the subject coherently (It is new years eve after all) I will explain myself. However I will say this, just as any argument or question, there is always good and bad. The question is which one outweighs the other? And to me, the answer is introducing ASICs will have the bad outweigh the good.
Project Koinyx is now underway! A new exchange by the community, for the community. Check out the official announcement thread for details! https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22350.0

Follow me on twitter https://twitter.com/TheRealMage for Koinyx and Litecoin news!

Offline BitoptiX

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2014, 12:44:06 AM »
When a 51% attack is the biggest vulnerability to the network, it's foolish to engineer the system so that mining is only possible for a few specialized people and groups.  If any government or large authority/organization wants to kill the entire system, all it takes is for them to engineer their own ASIC, which I may remind you, governments hire plenty of.

I voted yes.  Decentralized mining is the saving grace and only reason I see promise in Litecoin over Bitcoin.  I couldn't care less if Litecoin ASICs will cause a value spike, as I'd rather see Litecoin win out long-term.  Unlike Bitcoin, Litecoin still has the freedom and flexibility to make changes without collapsing the entire coin.

Offline nogreedy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 394
  • Litecoin : The official moon currency
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2014, 12:47:29 AM »
I vote No
I don't accept tips, please support the Litecoin Community Community donation addresses https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=16136.0

OpenPGP Fingerprint: 8C564896E2ECADC5066CFFA0EBA92F4DEDB0480D

Offline Litesoul

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2014, 03:55:44 AM »
How can you make it ASIC proof?  Can't you only make it ASIC resistant?  Eventually (assuming the coin becomes popular) the value of the coin will rise such that making a specialized device to solve the POW will make it worth it for someone to make one, right?
Purity in digital silver.

Offline Icon

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2014, 05:27:30 AM »
Proof of stake vs Proof of work is irrelevant when it comes to asic's PPC Peer Coin a Proof of stake coin, and it runs just fine on sha256 asic hardware. Litecoin still runs on scrypt until that changes, their will be asic's srycpt miners out this year 2014.

Icon


PS

Changing the work output, won't they cause a hardfork? Making already mined ltc useless?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 05:31:50 AM by Icon »

Offline zollen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 175
Re: Change the litecoin Proof of Work function to avoid ASIC mining?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2014, 07:17:44 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong..... by changing the scrypt base POW, it would not be possible to re-verify all old blocks that were signed by the existing scrypt based algorithm?

It does not seems to be technically possible.

while we are on the topic, the concept of mining pools for BTC/LTC are already working against decentralization..
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 07:23:14 AM by zollen »
Sapphire 7970 x 2 CrossFireX

LTC: Lcb1vHyV6xWs9EJLPyL2AmXbWBuCeWRqbP