Author Topic: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs  (Read 2556 times)

Offline infinitepeace

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For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« on: March 06, 2014, 02:39:35 PM »
I talked to Cointerra and Butterfly Labs yesterday and they have NO plans to release sCrypt ASICs.

They said that there is NOT enough profit margin in selling them, and that there is not enough of a jump in power.  They think that future GPUs especially will remain competitive IF you have cheap/free power in the coming year.  One gentleman said AMD has caught on a little and their next generation premier card will hash at like 1,500K/h+++.

They said they thought eventually sCrypt mining would be taken over by ASICs but it is not going to be anything like BTC.

They said for them the margins on the hardware are not high enough compared to BTC.

That gives you an idea how much money these guys must be making on selling BTC ASICs.  :o  8)

Also both said they are continuing to review sCrypt and will move quickly if they think the environment changes.  I think that creates a great opportunity for Litecoin ASIC startups - but also it means -

don't worry so much about this!

That being said - someone from an unrelated company said they know for sure KnC has a sCrypt internal project ongoing and may surprise everyone.  I have no idea if this was B.S. or not.

* This thread contains speculation, not proven facts, just thought I would try to ease some fears people have, ALL SAID anything is subject to change. *
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Offline Sy

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 03:15:51 PM »
Nothing really new, the asics are kinda not interesting if your power is cheap and you only want to deploy around 10 mhs because they arent faster, just cooler and less power hungry -> easier to manage with big operations and thats the premium you are paying.

Unless your power comes at 0.32$/kwh, i am interested in asics from the beginning ^^


Offline Benny

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 05:07:01 PM »
The specs on Maxwell are not much different than ASICs, so the argument is pretty stupid, IMO. The advantage ASICs will offer is that they will have a decent hash-per-watt advantage, but not much in hash-per-dollar. I don't think this is a bad thing for the market, because it will allow more people to buy machines for mining LTC as opposed to fighting the bloody battle of rummaging through NewEgg and Tiger Direct's insanely high prices for GPUs.

People forget, but before the massive November/December rush, AMD 7950's were being sold for $200-$250/ea. Now the same cards are going for 50% more. Its disgusting, and warping the true value of GPUs. ASICs may help introduce some sanity, while keeping GPUs as still useful devices.

Offline PowdaBaM

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 05:54:07 PM »
I haven't been interested in purchasing an ASIC for even a second.  Even if they did come out, I would have no problem with people purchasing them, the only reason people don't like ASICs is because they don't know basic math and logic.  A $million dollars into CPU mining or GPU mining or ASIC mining, is no different.  The whole fight against ASIC makes zero sense.

Offline Carnth

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 06:29:03 PM »
More food for thought about changing something as fundamental as the Proof of Work algorithm in a stable coin.

Back in March of 2013, Bitcoin had a hard blockchain fork occur because the newer 0.8 version of Bitcoin allowed for a larger block size (allowed for more transactions to be included in a block).
This fork nearly caused a nightmare scenario for Bitcoin. And it was just one small change.
There may be huge unintended consequences in changing the PoW. It's not as easy as just flipping a switch.

Offline Sy

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 07:08:37 PM »
The specs on Maxwell are not much different than ASICs, so the argument is pretty stupid, IMO. The advantage ASICs will offer is that they will have a decent hash-per-watt advantage, but not much in hash-per-dollar. I don't think this is a bad thing for the market, because it will allow more people to buy machines for mining LTC as opposed to fighting the bloody battle of rummaging through NewEgg and Tiger Direct's insanely high prices for GPUs.

People forget, but before the massive November/December rush, AMD 7950's were being sold for $200-$250/ea. Now the same cards are going for 50% more. Its disgusting, and warping the true value of GPUs. ASICs may help introduce some sanity, while keeping GPUs as still useful devices.

So 3-5 khs/watt on Maxwell is the same as 42 khs/watt (Gridseed), 33 khs/watt (Alpha-T) or 240 khs/watt (Fibonacci)?

Offline infinitepeace

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2014, 10:55:47 AM »
I did some research this morning as I am an occasional insomniac, everything I could find since hearing that gossip at the Texas Bitcoin convention is further confirmation that Litecoin will remain something casual gamers can mine profitably.

to wit:

http://wccftech.com/nvidia-steal-cryptocurrency-mining-crown-from-amd-maxwell/

Quote
the thing is this: Nvidia’s Maxwell GPUs give more profitable hashrates than their AMD counterparts....scaling holds up to the high end then there can only be one answer. High End Maxwell GTX Geforce GPUs will give higher hash rates than their Radeon Counterparts while consuming less power and staying cooler (the 750 ti in question here never crossed 60c with or without OC). The logical next question: Is Nvidia GPUs prices going to inflate like a balloon from hell?

AMD goes all out confirming the rumor I was told at the conference of 1,500kh/s++ on their top single GPU.  Meet the Pirate Islands:

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/03/05/amd-hbm-scrypt-mining/

Quote
Usurped from its Gaming destiny, the R9 290 is of course the undisputed GPU heavy weight champion of scrypt mining, but – grab the rails – because that could loop-the-loop later this year when AMD introduces HBM 3D to it’s GPU arsenal. HBM promises to give scrypt mining the heavy artillery that everyone perhaps expected would be delivered via hybrid ASICs.  However, if we must go faster – and we do – enter 2.5 and 3D “Stacked” memory. The question remains: “How fast?” Hynix promotional material suggests they can achieve 40% power reduction and an incredible 65% speed improvement.

So 4th quarter 2014 AMD releases 1,650kh/s at 40% less power usage!  No wonder BFL is afraid!!  A five card rig with one PSU is possible giving ~ 8,500kh/s per every single PC based rig!  :o

This is good news for everyone as Nvidia and AMD seem to be unofficially in the scrypt ASIC business, except their cards retain their value for high end general gaming.  ;D

It also means LTC remains more distributed, more secure, and with a lower barrier to entry continuing to welcome new miners.  I might worry if I was in the scrypt ASIC business - you are not going to win against Nvidia and AMD if they start to see mining as a major market to target.
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Offline D3V0

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2014, 02:55:46 PM »
Let's just hope AMD doesn't go bonkers on the pricing for those cards.  Otherwaise, put me down for 5 please  :D

Offline lawabider

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 12:29:17 AM »
You can already buy gridseed. It is very efficient for scrypt, and should drive down LTC/BTC while making money for whoever owns it.

Offline infinitepeace

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 02:35:42 AM »
I'm flattered someone put this post on the front page of the litecoin subreddit, however I want friends here to know I did not self post this link to Reddit, was surprised when I just saw it there.  However, I am glad concerned GPU miners are becoming aware of the info found here.

The TL:DR is, if you want to GPU mine Litecoins: Keep calm, Carry on, and upgrade your GPUs this year!  Because AMD Pirate Islands is close to an ASIC killer depending on its price and will hold major resale value, it is cool to see rumors from the Texas Bitcoin conference I heard there turning out to be true...now if only I could remember the name of that coin that was going to the moon... :P

1,650kh/s at 170 watts is no joke, per card, especially if you have cheap power!  Big thanks to AMD, top Maxwell may come close also.

Say the card is $400 - that is amazing kh/$  - we will probably see scalping and hoarding though.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 02:43:31 AM by infinitepeace »
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Offline BeepBeep2

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 03:18:56 AM »
I did some research this morning as I am an occasional insomniac, everything I could find since hearing that gossip at the Texas Bitcoin convention is further confirmation that Litecoin will remain something casual gamers can mine profitably.

to wit:

http://wccftech.com/nvidia-steal-cryptocurrency-mining-crown-from-amd-maxwell/

Quote
the thing is this: Nvidia’s Maxwell GPUs give more profitable hashrates than their AMD counterparts....scaling holds up to the high end then there can only be one answer. High End Maxwell GTX Geforce GPUs will give higher hash rates than their Radeon Counterparts while consuming less power and staying cooler (the 750 ti in question here never crossed 60c with or without OC). The logical next question: Is Nvidia GPUs prices going to inflate like a balloon from hell?

AMD goes all out confirming the rumor I was told at the conference of 1,500kh/s++ on their top single GPU.  Meet the Pirate Islands:

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/03/05/amd-hbm-scrypt-mining/

Quote
Usurped from its Gaming destiny, the R9 290 is of course the undisputed GPU heavy weight champion of scrypt mining, but – grab the rails – because that could loop-the-loop later this year when AMD introduces HBM 3D to it’s GPU arsenal. HBM promises to give scrypt mining the heavy artillery that everyone perhaps expected would be delivered via hybrid ASICs.  However, if we must go faster – and we do – enter 2.5 and 3D “Stacked” memory. The question remains: “How fast?” Hynix promotional material suggests they can achieve 40% power reduction and an incredible 65% speed improvement.

So 4th quarter 2014 AMD releases 1,650kh/s at 40% less power usage!  No wonder BFL is afraid!!  A five card rig with one PSU is possible giving ~ 8,500kh/s per every single PC based rig!  :o

This is good news for everyone as Nvidia and AMD seem to be unofficially in the scrypt ASIC business, except their cards retain their value for high end general gaming.  ;D

It also means LTC remains more distributed, more secure, and with a lower barrier to entry continuing to welcome new miners.  I might worry if I was in the scrypt ASIC business - you are not going to win against Nvidia and AMD if they start to see mining as a major market to target.
65% speed improvement as far as memory bandwidth.
Not mining speed.
Mining speed for all we know may only improve a few %.
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Offline marigold

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Re: For Everyone Who Wants the PoW Changed due to ASICs
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 03:13:50 PM »
simple calculation for this gridseed stuff:
-3MH/s with PSU etc. cost: 1850€ http://hashra.com/gridseed-3-mh-s-scrypt-sha-miner-including-psu-accessories/

IF We even ignore the Difficulty,power cost, and the Price increase and add a Drop-out rate of 3%.
The miner has a ROI of around 9-10months

compared with a CoinTerra 2TH (Miners are delivered), which has a ROI of 1,5months if you ignore all this things.

You can already buy gridseed. It is very efficient for scrypt, and should drive down LTC/BTC while making money for whoever owns it.